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November 29, 2012 at 12:00 AM
What I meant about "I wrote this in fanfiction.net". I meant that I wrote the message at fanfiction.net also not the story. Sorry about this. I'm a little paranoid.
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November 28, 2012 at 12:00 AM
Well, if we want to be objective, the possession was something that he was actually quite aware of, as he told Naruto. Maybe Karin should note that, while understandable, saying that he betrayed Orochimaru because he meant to possess him does not exactly constitute an argument "against" him beying an unrelyable traitor, quite the contrary (you cannot disprove that someone is a traitor by pointing out that they... betrayed (for a good reason), as while it might make his actions understandable, it doesn't exacty change the nature of said actions -likewise, stealing because you need food to survive, while making your actions understandable, also does not make you magically "not a thief"). If we want to be picky about it, then, Sasuke "did" know about the possession (the Cursed Seal thing was mentioned to him by the Sound group that went to get him). Had he not been for Orochimaru's illness, he might have very well thought it acceptable, or maybe not. Nonetheless, it's doubtless that he did leave him when he cheased to be useful to him (when he didn't have other power to give), and actually postulating that he wouldn't have done that if it had suited his goals slightly better, if there had not been such a threat (in other words, it's not as if he simply acted strictly in self defence -not to mention that it was a situation he agreed to, not a backstabbing on Orochimaru's part-)... well, given what he did with Konoha and his friends, 'that' seems such a quite unobjective and risky assumption. Looking at the empirical evidence and draving the objective conclusion would be that be it people, summon or stuffed animal, he is going to betray it.
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November 28, 2012 at 12:00 AM
Actually, "villain" or "scumbag" might a more apt description than "criminal", as killing Orochimaru was the only mentioned act that was not a crime (though indicative of Sasuke's character as a backstabber -we are essentially talking about two criminals/lowlives entering in an agreement the former didn't still consider worth paying, having sensed a weakness in the latter, and thinking he could get away with a double-crossing... no "he was betrayed and only defended himself", he knew about it from the get go, as he told Naruto-).
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November 28, 2012 at 12:00 AM
Actually, looking at Hawk and Akatsuki, one could very well say that he would have backstabbed him in any case -either abandoning him to his fate, or actually attempting to strike him down, as he would do with Karin, and attempting to finish him (her) when he/she was no longer needed (and it was no longer necessary). Not something that appened here, but something all the evidence pointed towards him being likely to do (the premise was him caring about power/revenge more than about his friends/allies).
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November 28, 2012 at 12:00 AM
when will you update cause it looks like Yourfanfiction.com bite the dust? you could try FF.net since they have yet to take down your limelight story. Eeither place, I Look forward to more from you.
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November 28, 2012 at 12:00 AM
$ He even turned on his master once he felt he had nothing to learn to boot.”
“Well it was a little more complicated than that,” Karin said. She wasn’t trying to defend Sasuke but she did prefer people knew all the facts before forming their opinions on a subject. It was something her background in science had brought about as well as having her own illusions about Sasuke stripped away. “Orochimaru was planning to use his body as his own. I guess you could say Sasuke simply struck first.” $
Selective recollection. As he said to Naruto, he entered in the agreement fully knowing what it entailed. He did leave when he felt he had nothing more to learn and the deal became useless to him. His experience with Konoha taught us that he 'was' more than willing to betray and leave/kill/attempt to kill if he felt he didn't have anything to gain by staying loyal any longer. Saying "he isn't a traitor, he betrayed... (him for this or that reason)" is obviously a contradiction in terms (though I think it could be agreed that him doing that to Orochimaru was good for him and society in general, it does not exactly make him 'not a traitor'... James Lannister in Martin's book, killing a genocidal king and being scorned for betrayal -maybe it was a good thing, but a traitor is a word with a specific definition, that doesn't include it not working for bad guys-.
“Well it was a little more complicated than that,” Karin said. She wasn’t trying to defend Sasuke but she did prefer people knew all the facts before forming their opinions on a subject. It was something her background in science had brought about as well as having her own illusions about Sasuke stripped away. “Orochimaru was planning to use his body as his own. I guess you could say Sasuke simply struck first.” $
Selective recollection. As he said to Naruto, he entered in the agreement fully knowing what it entailed. He did leave when he felt he had nothing more to learn and the deal became useless to him. His experience with Konoha taught us that he 'was' more than willing to betray and leave/kill/attempt to kill if he felt he didn't have anything to gain by staying loyal any longer. Saying "he isn't a traitor, he betrayed... (him for this or that reason)" is obviously a contradiction in terms (though I think it could be agreed that him doing that to Orochimaru was good for him and society in general, it does not exactly make him 'not a traitor'... James Lannister in Martin's book, killing a genocidal king and being scorned for betrayal -maybe it was a good thing, but a traitor is a word with a specific definition, that doesn't include it not working for bad guys-.
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November 28, 2012 at 12:00 AM
“He’s exactly what I think of him, a piece of trash that abandoned his home and friends to go worship at the feet of another piece of trash that killed my grandpa. He even turned on his master once he felt he had nothing to learn to boot.”
“Well it was a little more complicated than that,”
Quite less complicated than what she actually said afterwards demonstrated. I mean, he was not exactly the first nukenin to ever live, backstabbing is not exactly something I 'wouldn't' associate with criminal, particularly if they are the kind of person that was willing to betray his country and friends to go join the very same man that almost destroyed said country and killed his leader -and he was a member of the military that was sworn to protect it-. If he was willing to do that for power -and he put on the balance the two things deciding that he valued that more than his friends or honor/morals (but not, apparently, more than his desire to stick it to his brother by proving it wrong and doing things his own way. "He’s exactly what I think of him, a piece of trash that abandoned his home and friends to go worship at the feet of another piece of trash that killed my grandpa." is objectively impossible to reject, apart from the "worshipping" part -with his arrogance, fat chance of that- (for those who think that a recent development, think about Sasuke vs Lee, particularly about being a fool for going up against those eyes, etc. -not that Itachi wasn't guilty of the same boasting with Kakashi.
“Well it was a little more complicated than that,”
Quite less complicated than what she actually said afterwards demonstrated. I mean, he was not exactly the first nukenin to ever live, backstabbing is not exactly something I 'wouldn't' associate with criminal, particularly if they are the kind of person that was willing to betray his country and friends to go join the very same man that almost destroyed said country and killed his leader -and he was a member of the military that was sworn to protect it-. If he was willing to do that for power -and he put on the balance the two things deciding that he valued that more than his friends or honor/morals (but not, apparently, more than his desire to stick it to his brother by proving it wrong and doing things his own way. "He’s exactly what I think of him, a piece of trash that abandoned his home and friends to go worship at the feet of another piece of trash that killed my grandpa." is objectively impossible to reject, apart from the "worshipping" part -with his arrogance, fat chance of that- (for those who think that a recent development, think about Sasuke vs Lee, particularly about being a fool for going up against those eyes, etc. -not that Itachi wasn't guilty of the same boasting with Kakashi.
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November 28, 2012 at 12:00 AM
# She wasn’t trying to defend Sasuke but she did prefer people knew all the facts before forming their opinions on a subject. It was something her background in science had brought about #
Objectivity... curiously selective in when she chooses to apply it. Maybe using it and feeling the need to comment with Naruto (and the rest of the Konoha 12 -some of which, like Neji and Tenten, had never met Sasuke before the exams, and therefore knew him more or less like the Sand Trio... possibly having spoken even less words to him -none, I believe, in Tenten's case, possibly Neji's, even).
I mean, compare the situation with Iruka-Mizuki, and tell me if Naruto wouldn't have been shocked and outraged, not to mention protested wehemently, had the former put up the same show he did (they were colleagues, possibly friends, one would say that exeriencing the Kyubi was rather shocking for one's mental stability, and revenge, even misplaced, was not an uncommon point between the two, as lust for power and the choice to get it at the expense of loyalty to friend/village/duty/morals/bonds.
For that matter, I am pretty sure Aoi Rokusho had friends too (Mizuki certainly a lover).
Two points 1) in those cases, no one who know them, and certainly those that didn't (Neji, Tenten, ...) had anything but the standard, natural, smart, non masochistic and survival oriented reaction one tends to have towards nukenins; 2) in Mizuki's case, the betrayal happened before the man attempted to destroy the village and carry out a genocide in the streets -I think that that would actually grant him moral superiority despite the otherwise rather similar situation, namely the feeling that the village was holding him back for whatever reason, and the perceived need to get power for watever reason... not like revenge makes those acts more noble, while an understandable motif, I wouldn't exactly call it an admirable one, or one that would entail moral superiority on his part- Aoi is nothing to consider -stealing a sword towards joining the recent destroyer of the village and killer of its kage are really uncomparable actions.
Maybe being a scientist is not "actually" needed (let's also add that Naruto, despite his claim about how Sasuke was/was not, consistenty misjudged his character in canon far more than a rational outside observer would have by judging his actions and listenig to him actually stating his plan... empirical evidence, him insisting that he had been "kidnapped" and held against his will by Orochimaru -untrue, as he outright stated and physically demonstrated by going there on his own two legs-... Naruto actually being surprised Sasuke wasn't shocked by his "revelations" that everybody knew after timeskip... Naruto not understandin why he didn't come home after killing Orochimaru -was he sleeping when he explained that he wanted to end Itachi?-, and one could go on).
Well, maybe the only thing that's needed is someone with common sense. No need to understand Calaby-Yau manifolds. Look at how everyone else acts in similar circumstances, listen to people that actually know what they are talking about because they lived through it (Jiraya, with words and actions, even Iruka with Mizuki, by example, only to name a few). Sasuke was certainly not "special" or "unique" in his path and motives -which is why bad experiences can only explain, certainly not justify, actions beyond a certain moral event orizon... apart from the fact that he is neither repenting nor doing something to remedy (forgiveness on a silver platter, without having to work for it? Don't see how that would be satisfying from the point of the reader, nor getting something without putting the work into it wouldn't make it meaningless)-.
Objectivity... curiously selective in when she chooses to apply it. Maybe using it and feeling the need to comment with Naruto (and the rest of the Konoha 12 -some of which, like Neji and Tenten, had never met Sasuke before the exams, and therefore knew him more or less like the Sand Trio... possibly having spoken even less words to him -none, I believe, in Tenten's case, possibly Neji's, even).
I mean, compare the situation with Iruka-Mizuki, and tell me if Naruto wouldn't have been shocked and outraged, not to mention protested wehemently, had the former put up the same show he did (they were colleagues, possibly friends, one would say that exeriencing the Kyubi was rather shocking for one's mental stability, and revenge, even misplaced, was not an uncommon point between the two, as lust for power and the choice to get it at the expense of loyalty to friend/village/duty/morals/bonds.
For that matter, I am pretty sure Aoi Rokusho had friends too (Mizuki certainly a lover).
Two points 1) in those cases, no one who know them, and certainly those that didn't (Neji, Tenten, ...) had anything but the standard, natural, smart, non masochistic and survival oriented reaction one tends to have towards nukenins; 2) in Mizuki's case, the betrayal happened before the man attempted to destroy the village and carry out a genocide in the streets -I think that that would actually grant him moral superiority despite the otherwise rather similar situation, namely the feeling that the village was holding him back for whatever reason, and the perceived need to get power for watever reason... not like revenge makes those acts more noble, while an understandable motif, I wouldn't exactly call it an admirable one, or one that would entail moral superiority on his part- Aoi is nothing to consider -stealing a sword towards joining the recent destroyer of the village and killer of its kage are really uncomparable actions.
Maybe being a scientist is not "actually" needed (let's also add that Naruto, despite his claim about how Sasuke was/was not, consistenty misjudged his character in canon far more than a rational outside observer would have by judging his actions and listenig to him actually stating his plan... empirical evidence, him insisting that he had been "kidnapped" and held against his will by Orochimaru -untrue, as he outright stated and physically demonstrated by going there on his own two legs-... Naruto actually being surprised Sasuke wasn't shocked by his "revelations" that everybody knew after timeskip... Naruto not understandin why he didn't come home after killing Orochimaru -was he sleeping when he explained that he wanted to end Itachi?-, and one could go on).
Well, maybe the only thing that's needed is someone with common sense. No need to understand Calaby-Yau manifolds. Look at how everyone else acts in similar circumstances, listen to people that actually know what they are talking about because they lived through it (Jiraya, with words and actions, even Iruka with Mizuki, by example, only to name a few). Sasuke was certainly not "special" or "unique" in his path and motives -which is why bad experiences can only explain, certainly not justify, actions beyond a certain moral event orizon... apart from the fact that he is neither repenting nor doing something to remedy (forgiveness on a silver platter, without having to work for it? Don't see how that would be satisfying from the point of the reader, nor getting something without putting the work into it wouldn't make it meaningless)-.
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November 28, 2012 at 12:00 AM
i hope you continue writing this story now that yourfanfiction has shut down. please continue your good work(and that is saying it lightly) because many of your fans are waiting for you.
are you going to build up drama the way you did sakura's on kushina's inclusion to the harem?? i think you should, i mean this is basically incest and i really want to see your take on it
are you going to build up drama the way you did sakura's on kushina's inclusion to the harem?? i think you should, i mean this is basically incest and i really want to see your take on it
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November 27, 2012 at 12:00 AM
# Konohamaru folded his hands behind his head saying, “He’s exactly what I think of him, a piece of trash that abandoned his home and friends to go worship at the feet of another piece of trash that killed my grandpa. He even turned on his master once he felt he had nothing to learn to boot.”
“Well it was a little more complicated than that,” Karin said. She wasn’t trying to defend Sasuke but she did prefer people knew all the facts before forming their opinions on a subject. It was something her background in science had brought about as well as having her own illusions about Sasuke stripped away. “Orochimaru was planning to use his body as his own. I guess you could say Sasuke simply struck first.” #
... actually, it was quite as simple as that (attempting to pass it off as objective, pretty funny, -scientist... she should have just listened to her own words-). Notice that she obviously could correct him only on the last, less important phrase (killing Orochimaru being possibly the only positive aspect of the situation)... well, had she wanted to be 'completely' objective, technically she should have also pointed out the fact that no one ever tried to hide that fact from Sasuke when he entered the deal a-la Kimimaro, and that at the time he still didn't know about the man being no match for his brother (it certainly didn't seem that way from how he phrased it in the forest).
Another "objective" fact, if we want to be "objective", is that there isn't a single preson Sasuke has come in contact with since the age of twelve that he 'hadnt't' betrayed. His comrades, his village, his masters, Orochimaru, Madara, his Summons, his team (abandoning some of them to their deaths, outright stricking Karin and attempting to needlessly finish her -a fate she was luck to avoid in this fic-. Those are the empirical facts, what actually happen. Than, if you will, there are thesis and speculation. So, while the guy might be slightly mistaken about a minor point of his tirade (but if we want to be technical about that, even that can be argued, as already said), the general observation certainly had more than enough supporting data that it could easily hold up even without that.
The rest of the tirade was undoubtedly true (traumatic experience... yes, but then again he was acting lucidly, not crazed and animal-like, as a possessed jinchuriki would -and you are either a born sociopath, nature, or become a criminal because of your experiences, nurture... the same could be said about most of the villains in the manga). Assuming the existence of something called responsibility for one's own actions (without wich they wouldn't have a concept such of that of nukenin), he did make a rational, collected becision, weighting what he valued the most between an easier way to get his revenge (not the only way -it's not as if he had to abandon the concept in its entirety unless he went there- and his friends, and chose the former. That's a simle, empirical fact about his system of value -just as someone might be willing to screw someone he somewhat likes over if it was a choice between that and money (and it's not as if he couldn't get them from anywhere else)-. Maybe anyone would have turned out the same way, in his place (other people in similar circumstances didn't, but in any case that's not something one has to assess before evaluating his actions -just like a judge doesn't have to prove that 'he' wouldn't have turned out the same way had he lived his life when he chooses to convict a murderer-.
“Well it was a little more complicated than that,” Karin said. She wasn’t trying to defend Sasuke but she did prefer people knew all the facts before forming their opinions on a subject. It was something her background in science had brought about as well as having her own illusions about Sasuke stripped away. “Orochimaru was planning to use his body as his own. I guess you could say Sasuke simply struck first.” #
... actually, it was quite as simple as that (attempting to pass it off as objective, pretty funny, -scientist... she should have just listened to her own words-). Notice that she obviously could correct him only on the last, less important phrase (killing Orochimaru being possibly the only positive aspect of the situation)... well, had she wanted to be 'completely' objective, technically she should have also pointed out the fact that no one ever tried to hide that fact from Sasuke when he entered the deal a-la Kimimaro, and that at the time he still didn't know about the man being no match for his brother (it certainly didn't seem that way from how he phrased it in the forest).
Another "objective" fact, if we want to be "objective", is that there isn't a single preson Sasuke has come in contact with since the age of twelve that he 'hadnt't' betrayed. His comrades, his village, his masters, Orochimaru, Madara, his Summons, his team (abandoning some of them to their deaths, outright stricking Karin and attempting to needlessly finish her -a fate she was luck to avoid in this fic-. Those are the empirical facts, what actually happen. Than, if you will, there are thesis and speculation. So, while the guy might be slightly mistaken about a minor point of his tirade (but if we want to be technical about that, even that can be argued, as already said), the general observation certainly had more than enough supporting data that it could easily hold up even without that.
The rest of the tirade was undoubtedly true (traumatic experience... yes, but then again he was acting lucidly, not crazed and animal-like, as a possessed jinchuriki would -and you are either a born sociopath, nature, or become a criminal because of your experiences, nurture... the same could be said about most of the villains in the manga). Assuming the existence of something called responsibility for one's own actions (without wich they wouldn't have a concept such of that of nukenin), he did make a rational, collected becision, weighting what he valued the most between an easier way to get his revenge (not the only way -it's not as if he had to abandon the concept in its entirety unless he went there- and his friends, and chose the former. That's a simle, empirical fact about his system of value -just as someone might be willing to screw someone he somewhat likes over if it was a choice between that and money (and it's not as if he couldn't get them from anywhere else)-. Maybe anyone would have turned out the same way, in his place (other people in similar circumstances didn't, but in any case that's not something one has to assess before evaluating his actions -just like a judge doesn't have to prove that 'he' wouldn't have turned out the same way had he lived his life when he chooses to convict a murderer-.