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November 27, 2012 at 12:00 AM
#she did prefer people knew all the facts before forming their opinions on a subject. It was something her background in science had brought about#
Then she might have the intellectual honesty to acknowledge that she didn't exactly invalidate his point. One might even go as far as to point out that "objectivity" should mean that the same measure should be always applied, whereas treating someone differently because they are a friend (the police officer letting one drug dealer go while arresting another) is generally not something either professional, or that anyone who actually had to live through the consequences would find desirable. Objective facts: as Shikamaru's words before the "resque" mission illustrated, neither he nor most of the group were close to Sasuke (Ino, despite the crush, received three words from him in the entire manga -get off me-).
Objective facts: while he had a reason to be the way he was, he didn't excatly have many appealing traits personality wise (if we have to talk about Sacrifice, compare to Shikamaru offering to stay behind for people he didn't even know that well on a personal level, like he did with Choji... the same could be said for most of the Konoha 12, it term of self abnegation). Objective facts: he joined the person that killed his Kage and almost destroyed his courtry, killing his fellow citizens, not even a month after the fact. A man that expressed the desire to do it again. He didn't know anything about the illness, and that was the only reason he was able to carry out his plan. Amazingly, if we want to actually be 'objective', Konohamoru was right about that too.
Objective facts: he tried to kill Naruto and defected to the terrorist that almost destroyed their country, attacking just recently and killing their leader. He was ready to kill them all if they ever met him after the timeskip (would have been interesting to see how that would have affected their opinion, since deus-ex-machina, like the Kyubi healding and Orochimaru of all people intervening were the only thing that kept them alive).
Frankly, just "being willing to joint the person that killed my grandfather, destroyed my home and murdered my fellow citizens, even my family" does seem to be an awfully good reason to hate him. No need to bring into it jealousies to "justify" it -it's actually the most logical reaction, given self preservation, etc., and the normal course of action in such cases".
Then she might have the intellectual honesty to acknowledge that she didn't exactly invalidate his point. One might even go as far as to point out that "objectivity" should mean that the same measure should be always applied, whereas treating someone differently because they are a friend (the police officer letting one drug dealer go while arresting another) is generally not something either professional, or that anyone who actually had to live through the consequences would find desirable. Objective facts: as Shikamaru's words before the "resque" mission illustrated, neither he nor most of the group were close to Sasuke (Ino, despite the crush, received three words from him in the entire manga -get off me-).
Objective facts: while he had a reason to be the way he was, he didn't excatly have many appealing traits personality wise (if we have to talk about Sacrifice, compare to Shikamaru offering to stay behind for people he didn't even know that well on a personal level, like he did with Choji... the same could be said for most of the Konoha 12, it term of self abnegation). Objective facts: he joined the person that killed his Kage and almost destroyed his courtry, killing his fellow citizens, not even a month after the fact. A man that expressed the desire to do it again. He didn't know anything about the illness, and that was the only reason he was able to carry out his plan. Amazingly, if we want to actually be 'objective', Konohamoru was right about that too.
Objective facts: he tried to kill Naruto and defected to the terrorist that almost destroyed their country, attacking just recently and killing their leader. He was ready to kill them all if they ever met him after the timeskip (would have been interesting to see how that would have affected their opinion, since deus-ex-machina, like the Kyubi healding and Orochimaru of all people intervening were the only thing that kept them alive).
Frankly, just "being willing to joint the person that killed my grandfather, destroyed my home and murdered my fellow citizens, even my family" does seem to be an awfully good reason to hate him. No need to bring into it jealousies to "justify" it -it's actually the most logical reaction, given self preservation, etc., and the normal course of action in such cases".
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November 27, 2012 at 12:00 AM
Lastly, objectivity also means that the same principle couldn't be inconsistently applied. Take Mizuki. He was Iruka's friend. For all people know he could have also had traumatic experiences that made him go a little unhinged (techincally, Sasuke always appeared perfectly lucid and in control, not prey of an insane Cursed Seal induced frenzy when he actually chose to betray and defect -cannot remember if it let up during the following fight, but he was already rather aggressive up in the hospital roof, and it really started after witnessing the fight with Gaara, well before the confrontation with Itachi-. Konohamaru's position actually makes much more sense, and is more considerate of the objective, empirical facts, and coherent with the way traitors they 'weren't' involved with on a personal level were, than all of theirs.
That's as far as actual facts are concerned, and what one's actions tell about one's character. That's called changing one's world view in accordance with new information. That's exactly what one wouldn't exect the mother of a serial killer to do, because of emotional ties, and the way they colour the facts to and treat past experience as actual justification, rather than mere explanation (there is a difference, in that no one would treat seriously a serial killer or a traitor that was being court marshalled if he actually went up to the jury and say "I actually made preparations, it was premeditated, it was not a spur of the moment thing... but I went through Bad Experiences, and had a Sad Past"... while it might explain his behavior, and possibly would make most people turn out that way, it wouldn't excuse one's actions or make a selfish or violest person, for example, any less of one). To be frank, Konohamaru was judging him as anyone informed of the facts, and reasoning about them, would judge him. Not an unfair judgment at all, by the standards that are accorded to traitors in a military system -court marshalled-.
Pity he wasn't able to point out the obvious -that is, that she didn't exactly make a strong case agaist his general point, for that matter not even against the specific detail, and that while he might certainly find irritating that someone he likes would appear to be so subjectively superficial and selective about someone that had wronged him so (betraying everything Konohamaru stands for, joinig the person that killed his Grandfather, without even mentioning all the similarities between him and the "mistake" the Third made with Orochi by his own admission), not to mention blatantly inconstistent and incoherent (selective recollection of events), it doesn't change the fact that he would have had a right to be pissed in any case, Sasuke having spit on everything his grandfather had given his life to protect, like uncountable other ninjas before him (and everyone would have had a family to defend, personal stakes that could have led them away from a selfless decision), with the additional bonus of having done that with the village barely rising from the rubble, Konohamaru's only (grand)father -adult- figure dead at the hands of the very people Sasuke joined, and everyone discounting the fact and making excuses (but then they should be made about everyone, and they couldn't possibly justify, for example, the very existence of a penal system), was if the Third's body 'wasn't' still warm.
Many other examples. Practically all the "monsters" encountered so far, bar a few exceptions. Needless to say, rarely the thought of pitying justifications crossed anyone's mind (it might account for many thing... which don't include joining the terrorist that killed your leader and almost destroyed your country, hurting people that didn't do anything against you, and even liked/loved you -hurting in the physical, could kill you sense-, etc., etc.... technically, there wasn't even a strict causal relationship with revenge, as he could have very well decided not to let go of that, but still refuse to do certain things -such as joining a genocidal terrorist or two-... he did it when it suited him, after all, as he could have gotten the Mangekyou by proving Itachi right and chose not to, so there is really no reason not joining Orochimaru should or attempting to kill his former team at a later date couldn't be asked of him). Technically, as Mizuki planned to join Orochimaru 'before' he actually came and razed the village, killing the very people he was honor bound, and had sworn, to protect, he should by objective measures be treated with more leniency and consideration by comparison.
And if we want to consider every argument, then why not Jiraya's? (maybe because it actually made sense, and her arguments didn't even have enough actual weight to even technically imparct Konohamaru (objective by any means) conclusion? [if traitors are generall hated, then all the more traitors that chose to break their promises and join the person that killed the people he was sworn to protect, every ninja had sworn to die, and in may case sacrificed himself, to protect, not to mention killing your grandfather and father figure -doing anything but, in addition to being a double standard and incoherent, could even be seen as a betrayal, from an emotional point of view... not to mention that both the Third and Jiraya, who techically 'was' the only one who both knew Kushina, and by extension was familiar with Mikoto, the Uchia and that part of the story, as well as knowing of the seal and having witnessed Itachi use his Mangekyo illusion, and therefore was in a position to be unbyased, even to use leniency and consideration, and actually could speak from experience, having gone through the same thing, concluded that sparing the Snake Sannin was a mistake, and the latter expressed the only actually informed opinion on the Sasuke case, since he spoke from experience, having been Orochimaru's team-mate and friend... needless to say, his parents dieing doesn't exactly make human experimetation and terrorist attacks ok, a bad childood does not excuse a serial killer-].
That's as far as actual facts are concerned, and what one's actions tell about one's character. That's called changing one's world view in accordance with new information. That's exactly what one wouldn't exect the mother of a serial killer to do, because of emotional ties, and the way they colour the facts to and treat past experience as actual justification, rather than mere explanation (there is a difference, in that no one would treat seriously a serial killer or a traitor that was being court marshalled if he actually went up to the jury and say "I actually made preparations, it was premeditated, it was not a spur of the moment thing... but I went through Bad Experiences, and had a Sad Past"... while it might explain his behavior, and possibly would make most people turn out that way, it wouldn't excuse one's actions or make a selfish or violest person, for example, any less of one). To be frank, Konohamaru was judging him as anyone informed of the facts, and reasoning about them, would judge him. Not an unfair judgment at all, by the standards that are accorded to traitors in a military system -court marshalled-.
Pity he wasn't able to point out the obvious -that is, that she didn't exactly make a strong case agaist his general point, for that matter not even against the specific detail, and that while he might certainly find irritating that someone he likes would appear to be so subjectively superficial and selective about someone that had wronged him so (betraying everything Konohamaru stands for, joinig the person that killed his Grandfather, without even mentioning all the similarities between him and the "mistake" the Third made with Orochi by his own admission), not to mention blatantly inconstistent and incoherent (selective recollection of events), it doesn't change the fact that he would have had a right to be pissed in any case, Sasuke having spit on everything his grandfather had given his life to protect, like uncountable other ninjas before him (and everyone would have had a family to defend, personal stakes that could have led them away from a selfless decision), with the additional bonus of having done that with the village barely rising from the rubble, Konohamaru's only (grand)father -adult- figure dead at the hands of the very people Sasuke joined, and everyone discounting the fact and making excuses (but then they should be made about everyone, and they couldn't possibly justify, for example, the very existence of a penal system), was if the Third's body 'wasn't' still warm.
Many other examples. Practically all the "monsters" encountered so far, bar a few exceptions. Needless to say, rarely the thought of pitying justifications crossed anyone's mind (it might account for many thing... which don't include joining the terrorist that killed your leader and almost destroyed your country, hurting people that didn't do anything against you, and even liked/loved you -hurting in the physical, could kill you sense-, etc., etc.... technically, there wasn't even a strict causal relationship with revenge, as he could have very well decided not to let go of that, but still refuse to do certain things -such as joining a genocidal terrorist or two-... he did it when it suited him, after all, as he could have gotten the Mangekyou by proving Itachi right and chose not to, so there is really no reason not joining Orochimaru should or attempting to kill his former team at a later date couldn't be asked of him). Technically, as Mizuki planned to join Orochimaru 'before' he actually came and razed the village, killing the very people he was honor bound, and had sworn, to protect, he should by objective measures be treated with more leniency and consideration by comparison.
And if we want to consider every argument, then why not Jiraya's? (maybe because it actually made sense, and her arguments didn't even have enough actual weight to even technically imparct Konohamaru (objective by any means) conclusion? [if traitors are generall hated, then all the more traitors that chose to break their promises and join the person that killed the people he was sworn to protect, every ninja had sworn to die, and in may case sacrificed himself, to protect, not to mention killing your grandfather and father figure -doing anything but, in addition to being a double standard and incoherent, could even be seen as a betrayal, from an emotional point of view... not to mention that both the Third and Jiraya, who techically 'was' the only one who both knew Kushina, and by extension was familiar with Mikoto, the Uchia and that part of the story, as well as knowing of the seal and having witnessed Itachi use his Mangekyo illusion, and therefore was in a position to be unbyased, even to use leniency and consideration, and actually could speak from experience, having gone through the same thing, concluded that sparing the Snake Sannin was a mistake, and the latter expressed the only actually informed opinion on the Sasuke case, since he spoke from experience, having been Orochimaru's team-mate and friend... needless to say, his parents dieing doesn't exactly make human experimetation and terrorist attacks ok, a bad childood does not excuse a serial killer-].
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November 27, 2012 at 12:00 AM
Not sure where making exceptions/excuses because a criminal (that's what a traitor is, nukenin status or not, if they chose to show nepotism/favoritism rather than court marshal him, then it only means that the law is obviously not equally applied to everyone, at least for them) is your friend. Not sure where it ever became admirable, in general and in a public official in particular. Or why the mere possibility of someone's redemption (that he didn't ask for, or even appear to want, but that was offered to him on a silver platter, without him having to do anything to deserve it) should be put before the collectiveness' need to be protected in the best way possible. More than the mark of a Kage (Third himself admitted), a sign of incompetence, unprofessionalism (masochism and tendency to delusion, self delusion, wishful thinking), tendency to gamble with other people's lives (because it's the general citizen of Konoha that bears the risk, not Naruto, just as if it was not only the Third to be affected by Orochimaru's invasion... it didn't come back to bite only 'his' ass).
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November 27, 2012 at 12:00 AM
Funny thing, the "objective scientist" pretese.
She effectively said something to the effect of:
"Let's look at the evidence: betraying one's country, joining the terrorist that wants to, and almost had, destroyed it, leaving it leaderless and defenceless, use of violence, attempted murder... and he even farted in the elevator... he might have had his cool moments at the age of twelve... I am sure the same could be said Mizuki or most criminals, for they mostly don't think of themselves as evil or deserving punishment, and in any case don't walk around with 'villain' stamped on their heads, otherwise Iruka wouldn't have befriended them in the first place, had he been unpleasant or morally questionable from the get go... yet you don't see the man remembering the good times and thinking that that could justify his later actions, or have an impact on what he is now/has become -one's day's clean clothes are the next's dirty ones-"
"It's untrue, you are not being objective, he is not a criminal as you say, him farting in the elevator was the heavy dinner's fault, he who invited him cannot blame him".
Kinda missing the point, there, gal.
She effectively said something to the effect of:
"Let's look at the evidence: betraying one's country, joining the terrorist that wants to, and almost had, destroyed it, leaving it leaderless and defenceless, use of violence, attempted murder... and he even farted in the elevator... he might have had his cool moments at the age of twelve... I am sure the same could be said Mizuki or most criminals, for they mostly don't think of themselves as evil or deserving punishment, and in any case don't walk around with 'villain' stamped on their heads, otherwise Iruka wouldn't have befriended them in the first place, had he been unpleasant or morally questionable from the get go... yet you don't see the man remembering the good times and thinking that that could justify his later actions, or have an impact on what he is now/has become -one's day's clean clothes are the next's dirty ones-"
"It's untrue, you are not being objective, he is not a criminal as you say, him farting in the elevator was the heavy dinner's fault, he who invited him cannot blame him".
Kinda missing the point, there, gal.
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November 21, 2012 at 12:00 AM
For some reason I am unable to access yourfanfiction.com on my PC, Laptop, or Cell. If this is only my problem as a selfish request could you also update your fics on this site?
I have been blocked for several weeks and I don't know when it will stop.
I have been blocked for several weeks and I don't know when it will stop.
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November 19, 2012 at 12:00 AM
so whena re you updating the rest of the chapters?
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November 18, 2012 at 12:00 AM
Love this story, but now that yourfanfiction is down I truly hope you update here or give us a link to where u r going to update.
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September 29, 2012 at 12:00 AM
I remember when I first saw this story on Fanfiction.net and, aside from the sex scene and Naruto living the dream of Jiraiya and every other male shinobi in the world, I enjoyed the story that followed. Such as the twist on how all the Tailed Beasts were not only related to each other but you made it to be 'sisters' and used what the Sage of the Six Paths had said to them about being together in the future. When I saw the story deleted off of Fanfiction.net, especially when there are still other fics of the similar kind still on the site, I was a bit worried since I did want to see how it all would come together especially after what had just happened when Naruto was told why he was given the scroll in the first place.
Though it's on this site and still being read by many others, I hope it didn't kill your creativeness in completing the story. All I can say continue the story when you can.
Though it's on this site and still being read by many others, I hope it didn't kill your creativeness in completing the story. All I can say continue the story when you can.
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August 27, 2012 at 12:00 AM
Hey love the story is there any way to get updates via emsil like on ff.net?
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August 17, 2012 at 12:00 AM
hey followed this storey from fanfiction.net when can we expect ch 28 + 29? really eager to see them as this storeys at the top of my online reading list